Tuesday, July 18, 2023

Point Five Predictions: Flowey the Flower VS Blixer the Boss

Matti the Mouse


Lanturn's Angler

Jamievania


“A corrupted mind can't recognize the beauty of the world.” 

-- Amit Ray


Flowey the Flower, Asriel Dreemurr’s abominated reincarnation from Undertale.


Blixer the Boss; the circular harbinger of corruption from Just Shapes & Beats.


Power is alluring, but it is also a drug. Those born with no purpose or goals often seek it to fill the void in their lives with accomplishment and reason. In reality, the feeling of influence is what they seek–to not be bored by the world around them. In doing so, however, these two strange entities have gone off the deep end, becoming true monsters wishing to not just grow in power but also to reform the world both around and beyond them. Will Flowey’s SOUL power and DETERMINATION make Blixer bite the dust, or will Blixer paint the world pink and leave Flowey to wilt like the weed he is? We’re Point Five Blogs, and we welcome you to this discussion on who would win a DEATH BATTLE! 


Before We Start…


For Flowey, we will strictly be using Undertale and official Undertale media. Deltarune will be considered on the sidelines but all evidence points towards the latter game being far too removed from the original game's story to be applicable in this fight. More on this will be discussed later in the blog. 

We are also limiting Asriel to his plant body without all of monsterkind's SOULS. This is primarily because doing so required the convoluted plan of using Frisk to befriend monsterkind and lure them to Asgore's castle, whereas Omega Flowey merely required Frisk's to be there, which in all three runs of the game is inevitable and therefore more likely to happen.

As for Blixer, same story; Just Shapes & Beats will be used as well as all official material relating to such, including the crossover DLC and the Lost Chapter. A more pertinent note is that Just Shapes & Beats is not a game for those with photosensitive epilepsy or related conditions. The gameplay and music consists of loud, dupstep-heavy music and lots of flashing lights and colors. Please keep this in mind when previewing scans and images in this blog.

Also, spoilers abound for both games.

Background

Flowey

“You idiot. In this world, it's kill or BE killed.”


A long time ago, long after humans had won a war against the monsters and sealed them away, a human named Chara fell into the world of the monsters below. There they met Asriel Dreemurr, the son of King Asgore and Queen Toriel, who would adopt the lost human. 

The two children became as close as siblings. However, the human eventually devised a plan to destroy the shield trapping the Monsters underground, finally setting them free. To do this, they would poison themselves, allowing Asriel to absorb their SOUL. A monster with one human SOUL could cross the barrier and have the power to acquire six more and become a god. 

With their SOUL, he brought their body to the surface to bury them in a garden of golden flowers. A mob of humans soon attacked him, thinking he had killed the child. Asriel had the power to destroy them all, but due to his kind-hearted nature, he refused to retaliate and retreated. This inaction ultimately led to his demise, succumbing to the injuries after escaping back home. 

In the place where his dust scattered, Asriel's essence would fall into flower seeds from the surface. The royal scientist Dr. Alphys discovered the plants, injecting the flowers with DETERMINATION for her experiments. This would give one of the flowers a will and a consciousness of its own: Asriel was reborn as Flowey. 

Without a SOUL, Flowey lost all ability to feel love. Instead, he gained something else: the power to save and load whenever he liked. He could do every conceivable action he wanted. However, everything would soon be nothing to the husk. As he grew bored with his game, Flowey's mentality slowly degraded into constant malaise. 

That is until his interest was piqued by something new, a human named Frisk. They were a child who not only fell into the Underground but somehow took Flowey’s ability to save and reload. After trying to murder the child so he could take their SOUL, Flowey remained in the shadows, watching the human on their journey to escape the monster kingdom. Frisk came face to face with Asgore - who had collected six human SOULS - and won. On the cusp of their escape, Flowey stole these SOULS for himself. 

Flowey became an abomination, an amalgamation of humans, monsters, and plants. He wrested control over the files back to himself and sought possession of Frisk’s SOUL once more. After an intense battle, Frisk was able to turn the human SOULS against him. With his nigh-godly power removed, the damage Flowey sustained left him on death’s door. 

Should Frisk spare his life in the aftermath, Flowey would give you, the player, a crucial bit of advice before you reset the timeline: guide Frisk to befriend more monsters, discover the secrets of the True Lab, and lead monsterkind to their confrontation to Asgore. But this was a trap. Flowey had manipulated you into letting Frisk bring him to not just the six human SOULS but all monsterkind's. As the power of all monsters matched one human SOUL, this was the final step Flowey needed to ascend, rebirthing into a godly version of Asriel Dreemurr. 

Yet no matter what Asriel did, Frisk’s SOUL could not be destroyed, and the lost SOULS were freed once again. Unlike before though, there was one more person to save. Frisk’s DETERMINATION was something Asriel could not overcome, and with his prior identity intact, that brought to light his feelings. Asriel only wanted to reset the timeline entirely and spend time with their siblings, but he realized they were more selfless than that. Asriel would destroy the barrier and free everyone in the Underground but at the cost of losing his godhood and body. 

Before returning to his former self, Asriel had relearned that life could exist without needless violence and that a black-and-white worldview of “kill or be killed” fueled nothing but emptiness and hatred. As monsterkind returned to the surface, Flowey gave you a parting request to keep everyone happy and satisfied.

Despite having no SOUL, Flowey finally felt what it truly meant to have hope, compassion, and–-with no acronym required–love.

Blixer


“Long live the new fresh.”


Paradise is a simple land of, well, just shapes and beats. Its inhabitants live together in harmony, coming in many different forms. Before its creation were three triangles that would join to form the Tree of Life, giving birth to Paradise after a brief struggle with a mysterious pink corruption, overcome by a lone cyan square (called “Cyan” by fans–can’t imagine why).

However, this corruption manifested into a life-form: a monstrous cat-like beast controlling it as The Boss (although the game's fans named him Blixer; don't ask us why). Blixer hungered for power and control but succumbed to his hubris, getting sealed away in a stone circle. However, a cave-in broke his sealed state, and he briefly escaped before once again dying and regressing into a plant.

After creating a new Tree of Life, Cyan returned to the cave, only for the plant to find and absorb a fruit from the Tree of Life and revive itself as Blixer. He corrupted the ocean, attacked the inhabitants, and defiled the tree to consume many fruits, becoming even more powerful.

Blixer soon created a factory which captured and corrupted creatures, making an army to spread his corruption further. Eventually, Cyan arrived at Blixer's tower, where Blixer chased him up and tried to finish him off, only to fall off his tower. Cyan gathered the uncorrupted triangles and confronted Blixer, who stole the final triangle and stabbed it into his head, causing him to overload in power.

Blixer transformed into a powerful, spikey form and forced Cyan into an unwinnable situation, cornering the square into his mighty jaws and finishing him once and for all. 

Despite Cyan's attempts to revive, Blixer kept killing him ad infinitum. Things seemed bleak, as his friends gathered to mourn the loss of their hero. That was until they had an idea: by using two fruits from the Tree of Life, Cyan was revived and powered up, ready to contront the evil once again, easily defeating him.

As Blixer's body disintegrated, the last core triangle revealed itself and re-merged with its other parts to revive the Tree of Life, bringing light, harmony, and peace to Paradise once more.

Blixer ended up coming back to life after the ordeal, but this time he seemed to turn over a new leaf. He became a DJ and even Santa Claus at one point, adding harmony to the world he once sought to corrupt and destroy.

Equipment

Flowey

Human SOULS


In the world of Undertale, the SOUL is the culmination of one’s being, represented by a small floating heart. Both monsters like Asriel and humans like Frisk possess SOULS, though only humans’ can persist after death (more on this later). They are also stronger than monster SOULS, with one human SOUL being worth thousands of monsters’.

Seven humans trapped all monsters underground with a barrier that required seven human SOULS to break. The monsters, led by Asgore, formed the Royal Guard to collect these SOULS from any fallen human. Only one remained by the time Frisk arrived.

Upon confronting Asgore, Frisk witnessed Flowey kill Asgore and seize the six human SOULS, transforming into Omega Flowey to stalemate Frisk's determination and become a god. Flowey's body housed these struggling SOULS, enhancing his power and diversifying his attacks.

For this blog, we regard these SOULS as standard equipment, as Flowey accesses them in the Neutral and True Pacifist runs, and we must give him the SOULS to analyze him at peak potential anyway.

EXP and LV


Traditional RPGs have the player gain experience points after slaying an enemy, causing them to level up. Undertale, however, is no traditional RPG. EXP here stands for “execution points,” which quantify how much pain you’ve inflicted on others. Enough EXP will increase your LV, which stands for “LOVE.” Sounds nice, right? Wrong.



Blixer


The Tree of Life

The Tree of Life, the origin of all light, order, and power in Paradise, comprises three core triangles, each containing numerous “fruits.” Blixer had uprooted the tree, absorbing each core's energy and growing stronger every time. If separated, the three triangles can merge into a pseudo-black hole when reunited.


Triangle Fruit


The fruits, as mentioned above, are the core components of the Tree of Life. They appear to have some degree of sentience and possess numerous abilities, such as:


Factory

To expedite Blixer’s conquest for power, he created a massive factory-like facility to automate his corruption process further. As shown above, most of the factory’s interior is an obstacle course of hazardous pink machines of all sorts.

In the center lies a piece of the Tree of Life infused with corruption, squeezed like a lemon to drip onto kidnapped enemies put into an assembly line via a mechanical claw.

Guitar


A sick guitar that Blixer presumably made himself. It isnt anything special, but it makes him look cool as fuck.

Abilities

Flowey

Boss Monster Physiology

Asriel belonged to the magical monster race. their bodies mainly composed of magic and their SOULS love, hope, and compassion. Upon death, their SOULS shatter, and their bodies turn to dust and are spread over their favorite thing to allow their essense to live on inside.

When Asriel died, his SOUL disintegrated, and his body's dust nourished a flower garden, one flower absorbing his essence.

As a boss monster, Asriel's SOUL could linger briefly post-death. A significant trait as monsters and humans can absorb each other's SOULS for power enhancement; this extends to Flowey, who is only part-monster. This hybrid trait allows him to absorb both human and monster SOULS, as an entity cannot take a SOUL belonging to another of the same race.

In general, boss monsters possess the following abilities:


Plant Physiology


Being part plant, Flowey by nature has abilities akin to them, such as the ability to create tendrils and thorns to attack enemies. He also regularly moves in and out of places by shulking into his roots and moving through the ground like a living tuber.


Body Control


While it hasn’t been shown to any extreme extent in base form, Flowey’s face and head can change in shape, even shifting his voice to match others.


Danmaku


Danmaku is a subgenre of shoot ‘em up games where the player must avoid myriads of on-screen projectiles. Notable franchises under this belt include Touhou Project, Just Shapes & Beats (hmm), and of course Undertale. Flowey and other monsters/monster-like characters use their magic to create and control projectiles. In Flowey’s case, he makes small bullets called “friendliness pellets.” These attacks can harm non-physical entities and SOULS directly, though their damage is still limited by the durability of the individual they target.

DETERMINATION


Putting it simply, DETERMINATION is a SOUL’S ability to persist after death. This ability is tied to human SOULS, as monsters lack the physical matter to safely handle it in large quantities, turning into dust when they die instead. To circumvent this, Dr. Alphys injected a flower with pure, extracted DETERMINATION. This gave it sapience and “a will to live”, unintentionally creating Flowey. 


Without a true SOUL, Flowey seems to be unable to persist after death. Instead, he will immediately resurrect back at his last SAVE point (if he has one). This seems to be an active process, however, as he has contemplated dying forever at least once.

SAVE/LOAD


With DETERMINATION, Flowey can create SAVE points to mark a point in space-time. This acts as a form of time travel, instantly LOADING back to where his last point in time is. As Omega Flowey, he can use this offensively by SAVING over one’s death or injury, as he did with Frisk. Essentially you have to deal with an infinite loop of death, and you’re in position to bargain.

Reset and True Reset

RESETS in Undertale function as a potent mechanism to revert time, where Flowey reverts back to his initial starting point, which for him means going back to when and where he first sprouted.

TRUE RESETS are plain and simple: they’re total wipings of the game’s saves and runs, deleting everything to start anew. Any characters with knowledge of previous runs have their memories erased, including Flowey, returning Undertale back to its original state as if you bought the game again.

Acausality

Flowey’s DETERMINATION and resetting capabilities led him to remember each and every choice, action, and consequence he perceives in a given timeline. He in particular reset so many times that he’s practically seen everything in his world.

Blixer

Corruption


With either a touch or his presence, Blixer can corrupt nearly anything, turning them pink and hazardous to touch. He can turn the ocean toxic, corrode the environment, and turn living beings–including happy plants, sapient organisms, and even spirit-like entities–into brainwashed monsters following Blixer’s lead.

The corruption’s capabilities are rather impressive, spreading all over the island of Paradise and even overtaking the Tree of Life itself after some effort. Anything infected inherits Blixer’s other abilities as well, such as increasing in size and creating constructs.


However, the corruption isn’t immutable. Beings such as Friend (the blue cube in the “Close to Me” bossfight), have shown the capacity to resist its influence and revert to normal. This seems to take a lot of energy, however, as he seemed visibly exhausted by the end. Another entity, Ship, can safely float on the corrupted waters, implying that the corruption can be “dampened” (ba dum tss).

Danmaku


Blixer originates from a game featuring danmaku elements, where players are required to evade a barrage of projectiles released by one or several opponents. This approach is prevalent among every boss in Just Shapes & Beats, especially The Boss. Blixer uses pink attacks coming in many forms, including spike balls, laser beams, shockwaves, rising pillars, and cannon blasts.

Body Control


The Boss is capable of shapeshifting his body, even growing extra limbs, warping his face into cannons, or shooting body parts off as missiles. In the case of the latter ability, Blixer’s arms can grow right back, implying a form of regeneration.

4th Wall Manipulation


Blixer seems to be aware of being in a video game. He was shown being able to attack and corrupt the opening credits, upsetting the game designer. He is also able to ignore game rules by killing cyan on the game over screen.

Forms

Flowey

Omega Flowey

After stealing the six human SOULS from Asgore’s collection, Flowey gained a massive boost in physical power. A monster absorbing a human SOUL is mutated into a horrifying beast with split control over both their SOUL and the human’s, though without a SOUL it’s unclear as to how much control Flowey had himself. 


The boost in power mutated his body into the nigh-unstoppable Omega Flowey, a massive beast with humanoid organs, four eyes, a TV screen, twisting vines and countless tendrils, making him resemble the archangel of death, Azrael (from Abrahamic Religion, he’s not in the game).


As Omega Flowey, the power of six human SOULS not only gave an astronomical boost to his prior abilities, but plenty of new ones:


Blixer

Plant

After his first defeat, Blixer’s arm became his newly-regressed form, resembling a plant. It is by far the weakest (being completely depowered), though it has survived being pierced in the skull by a single triangle fruit.

New Fresh

Considered Blixer’s “base” form, gained after being revived by the fruit from earlier. Even here he’s massive, towering over nearly every other entity in Paradise. His plant body turns back into arms and his familiar round body returns.

A common misconception is that Blixer is a cat. However, his IRL creator Em has stated that he’s simply a monster who looks like one.

New Game

Blixer’s state after consuming every fruit in a single core triangle. Not only does his power massively increase, his shapeshifting, body control and creation abilities get a boost too. 

He used this form to influence the Tree of Life to attack Cyan and create numerous floors for a massive tower, and he’s created warp pipes a la Mario to teleport to and fro.

Pre-Annihilate

When Cyan purified the first two core triangles, Blixer stole the final one and jammed it into his head to absorb its power in full. He transformed yet again, but this time at the cost of most of his sanity.


This form appears to be a sort of “cocoon,” as he seems mostly immobile. That being said, the various segments of his myriapodic form can burst open to shoot “centipede” attacks, with some seemingly shot purposefully at Cyan.

Annihilate

The Pre-Annihilate form realized.This form is the strongest of all of them, boasting great size and a large, unhinging jaw with sharp fangs. Unlike his prior state, he is quite capable of moving around and shooting. This state is seemingly more focused than his other forms, presumably due to its more metamorphic state. 


This form also seems to grant some minor intelligence buffs, as he successfully cornered and caught Cyan using his centipede attacks, a strategy he never once used before. Furthermore, Blixer even interrupted the nature of the very game he was in by manually beating Cyan’s body during the game over scene.


The form is so powerful that it took Cyan being amped with the power and protection of two fruits from the Tree of Life to destroy it. He could still harm Cyan, however, albeit with negligible-at-best results.

Feats

Flowey

Overall

  • Escaped the True Lab immediately upon creation

  • Successfully lured and manipulated Frisk and Papyrus

  • Analyzed nearly every nook and cranny of the Kingdom of Monsters

  • Tricked you into helping him absorb every SOUL in the Underground

  • Successfully achieved godhood and rewrote reality twice out of three runs

Power

Speed


Durability

Blixer

Overall

  • Survived the initial battle for the creation of Paradise

  • Successfully uprooted and corrupted the Tree of Life

  • Created a massive factory to corrupt Paradise’s citizens

  • Temporarily conquered all of Paradise and enslaved its inhabitants

  • Came back to life, redeemed himself, and became a respected DJ

  • Defeated Cyan one-on-one, killing him beyond the Game Over screen


Power


Speed

  • [New Fresh] Quickly climbed out of a large cavern (pictured) 

  • [New Fresh onwards] Possesses laser-based attacks (~1 c) (pictured)

  • [New Game] Jumped from the top of the factory to the volcano (Mach 2.33 to 3.5)

  • Scaling:

    • Regularly chases and fights with Cyan, who can dodge lasers (7.315% - 31.29% c) These lasers are straight, come from believable sources like Blixer's glowing eye, and don't explode upon contact like real ones.

    • When amped with two fruits, Cyan can shoot lasers (~1 c)


Durability

 

Weaknesses

Flowey


Despite his intellect, determination, and reality warping abilities, Flowey is far from unstoppable. One notable weakness is that DETERMINATION can be overpowered by another user with equal or greater amounts of it. When Frisk fell into the Underground, their DETERMINATION negated Flowey’s ability to SAVE and LOAD.

Also, Omega Flowey doesn’t have full control over the SOULS he’s absorbed. If they’re called out to by a sufficiently strong SOUL, each will turn on Flowey, attacking and depowering him.

Finally, DETERMINATION also comes at the cost of one’s sanity over time. The more Flowey dies, the more his grip on reality fades, and the more people he used to know and care for forget him. This only added to Flowey’s insanity, to the point where he has seen reality’s mechanics throughout his timeline-hopping.


Blixer

Throughout his reign, Blixer’s mind was on one track. While he was still intelligent enough to build a factory, learn guitar and fight competently against Cyan multiple times, Blixer has always been more animalistic in terms of combat strategy. He can still be outmatched and outplayed, such as when Cyan tricked him into punching himself.


While not confirmed, another possible weakness is Blixer’s resurrective tendencies. Both times he was presumed dead, he re-emerged but in a prior, much weaker state, such as when his Annihilate form was killed and became New Fresh, or when New Fresh was crushed only to remain alive in his sessile, plant-like form.


Before we get to verdicts...

The Black Hole

Early in JSaB, the three separated triangles coalese into a dark, void-like object with a triangular hole. The spinning vortex sucks in lots of things, including a spider and Cyan. While it definitely resembles one, it doesn't seem to be a realistic enough black hole to qualify as one here.

For one, while objects and entities are attracted to it and inevitably fall in, the oceans and surrounding landforms don't even budge. This is especially notable as both have multiple times moved through outside influences before, such as Blixer punching the ocean and shoving the Tree of Life into the ground.

This either means the gravity would be too low to form a black hole (let alone suck in things like the Player) or it isn't pulling objects in through gravity at all. If it were a legitimate black hole, the environment itself would get sucked in.

Another point of contention is what happens inside. True black holes essentially destroy anything that goes near the event horizon, pulling them apart to the sub-atomic level and never spitting them back out. In JSaB, a mere spider not only survives but also ends up in a new level as a boss. Cyan can also enter and exit this hole (I know what you're thinking and shut up) without harm. This indicates that it's more of a wormhole than a black hole.

However, we cannot deny that the game's designers as well as the context of the black hole indicate this to resemble a real one. As a result, it is still viable to calculate the resulting gravitational binding energy of the gravity well as if it were one, just not using values attributed to black holes.

Flowey VS Asriel

As we all know, Flowey in his Omega form is considerably stronger than Frisk. After all, he has six souls while Frisk has just the one. But that begs the question: Frisk's DETERMINATION let them survive a fight from Flowey's true form, Asriel, who could casually erase timelines using "Hyper Goner" and potentially reset the entire game world, which holds multiple space-time continuums. Does Flowey scale to any of this at all? Well, as it turns out, the answer is both obvious and disappointing.

Let's start with the context of the True Pacifist fight. In this fight, Flowey absorbed all six human SOULS plus the SOULS of all monsterkind. As mentioned earlier, this many monster SOULS equates to the power of a single human's, making Asriel as powerful as 7 human SOULS combined.

This by definition means that Asriel is definitively far stronger than Flowey. In the Neutral fight, Frisk can still at least harm Omega Flowey while the latter boss is completely invincible to them. This is especially prevelant as Asriel's stats are explicitly stated to be "infinite."

Frisk's DETERMINATION in the True Pacifist fight was also on another level than seen anywhere else in the game. When losing to Omega Flowey, Frisk's SOUL shatters into pieces. In the Asriel fight, it quite literally de-terminates and the fight carries on like nothing happened. This implies Frisk was at a considerably lower level of DETERMINATION in the Neutral Route than on the True Pacifist or Genocide routes.

But let's say it doesn't matter; a SOUL'S a SOUL, right? Even then, it's highly unlikely Flowey can fully scale to that level of power from one SOUL, let alone an added five. During the Omega Flowey fight, Frisk calls to the trapped SOULS and they each break free, weakening Flowey with each liberation.

While Flowey negated this by LOADING a prior SAVE point, the SOULS still rebelled and attacked Flowey, who was completely helpless. Flowey knows of this, implying his floral state doesn't have nearly the same level of control as Asriel and is therefore less likely to be able to siphon their maximum potential.

TL;DR: Flowey cannot scale to Asriel Dreemurr--not even a casual one. Asriel is defined as being stronger due to the difference in both SOUL power and their control over them. Frisk's DETERMINATION in the Omega Flowey boss fight is also weaker than it is in the Asriel Dreemurr fight.

Can Blixer corrupt Flowey and the SOULS?

Yes, it's entirely possible. The La Danse Macabre boss fight proves that Blixer is capable of corrupting ghosts, and SOULS themselves are the metahysical culminations of one's being (which lines up with how ghosts normally are in fiction).

Human SOULS also seem to be easy to manipulate and give special properties. They can be tied up in webs, forced to obey gravity, poisoned via KARMA, and of course isolated and absorbed by other entities as mentioned so many times before. However, given human SOULS possess DETERMINATION and have resisted Flowey's control, it's likely that they could resist the effects somewhat, possibly freeing themselves after a short time.

As for Flowey himself, it's without question that Flowey could also be corrupted. Corruption take the form of non-physical entities such as spirits and lasers, so Flowey's monster physiology wouldn't be of much help. Much like the SOULS, however, Flowey posesses DETERMINATION and could potentially resist Blixer's corruption and undo it later on.

Either way, both Flowey and the SOULS can definitely be corrupted, leaving them both vulnerable for a time unless they can free themselves quickly enough.

SAVE files: Is destroying them AP?

It's complicated, to say the least. Let's break it down point-by-point.
SAVE files are definitely timelines.
However, the latter event isn't seen anywhere else in the game, and the closest thing to it--a TRUE RESET--doesn't use this "destruction" effect. It's likely that this is a case of Flowey's 4th wall manipulation screwing with the game and taunting Frisk, as he now possesses the ability to SAVE and LOAD to a greater extent than Frisk can.
Stronger characters have feats of timeline destruction.
There are two notable examples of characters destroying timelines through sheer power, however: Chara and Asriel.
Asriel is, in no uncertain terms, the strongest monster in Undertale. With seven SOULS, he was strong enough to perform a TRUE RESET, which he presumably did in a casual state through his Hyper Goner attack. This is a literal attack in the game that Frisk's immense DETERMINATION allowed them to survive. While it's definitely possible for Flowey to perform a TRUE RESET on his own, this would come at the cost of his own memories, and it was a power Flowey was looking to perform as Asriel, implying that he might not be able to access this sort of timeline destruction normally. 
In both cases, Flowey doesn't scale to either. Asriel for reasons stated earlier, and Chara because he not only has never shown the capacity to attack the game as to completely destroy everything in the game and survive, he also fears Chara's power as shown when he dies to Frisk at the end of the Genocide Route.
TL;DR: Flowey already possesses timeline manipulation as a non-AP ability through SAVING and LOADING, and it's unclear as to what him "breaking" the SAVE file even means. Asriel and Chara, who have solid evidence for physically scaling to timeline destruction, are also vastly stronger than Flowey. Asriel in particular was needed to perform a TRUE RESET by Flowey, so it's unlikely he has such mastery. 

How fast is Flowey?

Undertale is infamous for its hard-to-define stats, and speed is certainly no exception. Let's break it down like we did in the SAVE file segment.

Vulkin's "lightning"

In Hotland, an enemy called Vulkin performs an attack where he forms a cloud and shoots pellets of what seem to be lightning. It's without question that any attack that mirrors a real world object has properties of said object--fire attacks can heat things up, Sans and Payrus using real bones, etc.--but here it's questionable given how VS handles lightning feats.

For one, Vulkin's lightning does indeed come from a cloud. It's got a happy face on it, but it's one nonetheless. Volcanic clouds can and do produce lightning.

But at the same time, real lightning follows a mostly-straight, continuous path as a singular bolt while Vulkin's lightning is a series of small, slightly disorganized pepper shots. This indicates that it's not true lightning according to VS standards, and so the standard speed of electricity applies.

Knight Knight

Another monster commonly brought up for speed feats is Knight Knight. This character has an attack in which they fire pellets coming from a Sun-like object, which some assume to be light particles. Unfortunately, similarly to Vulkin's lightning, these pellets are even less legitimate.

Light needs to follow a straight, unbroken path. It can only bend when reflected by another object or refracted by passing through another medium. Offensively, it must burn on contact without exploding or "punching" an entity. Knight Knight's attack takes the form of small, rotating pellets that fire off in a spiral path.

Genuine light attacks do exist in Undertale, however: Sans's gaster blasters and Mettaton's disco balls do emit beams of light under these rules, but Frisk nor the player can avoid them the moment the beam comes out--aimdodging is the only way to prevent being hit by them.

However, given it must be based on something, we have decided to use solar wind--charged particles emitted from the Sun--as a basis. However, given that the other lightspeed and MHS+ attacks from Vulkin and Knight Knight have been dismissed, this means that the solar wind feat is almost certainly an outlier and should not be reasonably used.

Immeasurable Flowey?

And here we have the crown jewel of arguments for Flowey's speed. To summarize, in the Omega Flowey fight, the world is essentially destroyed. There's nothing but him, Frisk, and a black void. This is because Flowey has (presumably) destroyed everything, including the timeline. As a result, many argue that Flowey in this state is capable of acting and fighting in a timeless void and is therefore immeasurable in speed.

Sadly, this argument doesn't hold up for a pretty obvious reason:

Flowey can still SAVE and LOAD.

In Undertale, SAVING and LOADING both require a time and place to come back to, accessible via your own determination. If this is truly a timeless void with no time or space, then there would be no way to create a working SAVE point.

So... how fast IS Flowey?

In short, his best feats and scaling put him in the relativistic range, possibly lightspeed at most. We can assume that Flowey's speed increases alongside his power with the human SOULS, and with each SOUL being the equivalent of every monster, we can find the percentages of each population to give certain feats to.

We did this by starting with a total population of 12,500, which is the most ratings a typical player will get in the Mettaton EX boss. Then we used the ratio of encountered monsters to total monster populations to find the percentages of each monster who could possess the same stats on the stat board.

After applying the presumed population's percents, we found different feats we calculated and applied it to various monsters whose stats seemed to fit what that range could be.

This ended up not only giving us his large town rating but also a potential minimum of over 7% the speed of light when multiplying the result by seven.

This of course, was calc'd in the middle of development. The fastest speed in the initial calculation was Mach 1.58, roughly twice as slow as the meteor feat. We can adjust this to get an extremely rough estimate of 22.1% the speed of light, which is actually not too far off from Blixer's highest scaling.

TL;DR: Flowey's base form is roughly supersonic (~Mach 5.87) at minimum, and his Omega state gets up to 22.1% the speed of light given some leeway into how SOULS in Undertale stack. Many feats by lower monsters that go higher than that are either outlierish, exaggerated, or otherwise aren't consistent enough. Immeasurable Flowey is also a no-go, given how SAVING and LOADING is still a thing in the Omega Flowey boss fight.

Verdicts


Flowey


On the surface, it's easy to assume that Blixer has the upper hand against Flowey thanks to his superior physicals. His corruption ability could seriously mess Flowey up, too. Blixer's ability to manipulate the game world, even from the game-over screen, might make you think that Flowey's key power - DETERMINATION - is less effective.

But delve deeper, and you'll find that Flowey is one tricky bastard. Even though Blixer has some neat tricks up his sleeve with the Tree of Life, he's nowhere near as versatile as Flowey. Both can create objects and lifeforms, but Flowey has a better handle on game manipulation, being able to tweak SAVE files and crash the game.

Blixer does have an edge with his corruption, but it's not a game-ender. Weaker beings have resisted corruption before, so Flowey, with his hardy DETERMINATION, could resist it for a time. Let's also remember that Flowey and Blixer are even in speed, giving him time to outlast the corruption before any real damage could be done.

Sure, Flowey could be killed in this fight. Many, many times. But with DETERMINATION, every defeat for Flowey is a redo. He remembers past defeats and resets, essentially resurrecting and returning wiser each time. And while Blixer might attack from the game over screen, Flowey doesn't really have one at all, immediately returning to his SAVE point before Blixer even has a chance to attack.

Of course, all this won't matter if Flowey can't actually finish off Blixer. Here's where the secret weapon comes in - Flowey's attacks can directly target the opponent's SOUL, bypassing any physical durability. And if Blixer has a SOUL, which is likely, Flowey could target that or even absorb it. Flowey could also choose to focus on Blixer's minions or triangles. By absorbing their SOULS, Flowey could power up without risking being one-shot by Blixer.

Even though Blixer has the brute strength advantage, Flowey's intelligence, experience, and ability to play around with the game give him a fighting chance. It might be an uphill battle, but Flowey will beat Blixer to be the SOUL survivor of this battle.

Blixer


From a purely statistical perspective, Blixer appears superior, with his offensive and defensive capabilities potentially enabling him to defeat Flowey in one fell swoop.

Flowey's main advantage—his control over timelines and the ability to RESET—represents a significant challenge that Blixer must overcome. However, Blixer's powerful corruption ability could well be the trump card he needs to counter this.

Even though Flowey and the SOULS might resist the corruption or use resets to negate its effects, the process could cause a lapse in focus. This brief distraction could present Blixer with a crucial opportunity to strike a fatal blow. Blixer's tactical acumen could compound this advantage further. He's known to create situations where opponents face immediate attacks after RESETTING, rendering the mechanism ineffective.

By using corruption repetitively and employing his numerous arms, superior ranged attacks, and minions, Blixer could overwhelm Flowey and break his concentration. If Blixer manages to corupt Flowey, it could incapacitate him to the point where he's unable to focus enough to reset. 

Moreover, Blixer could potentially sideline the human SOULS by focusing his attacks solely on Flowey. Unless directly threatened, it's plausible the SOULS might not willingly assist Flowey, thereby reducing the flower's defensive resources. Despite the challenges, 

Flowey does have a chance at victory. Yet, Blixer's strategic use of corruption, overwhelming offense, and superior mobility put him in a strong position to win. 

Despite the odds, Blixer might eventually be able to be a real weed whacker, leaving Flowey to shape up and face the music.

Conclusion

Flowey 



“The power that I wanted to use. But now, the idea of resetting everything... I... I don't think I could do it all again. Not after that. So, please. Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy. Let Frisk live their life.”


Advantages:

  • Considerably smarter and more experienced

  • Able to negate Blixer's superior durability

  • Could resist Blixer's corruption, especially w/ SOULS

  • Far superior reality-warping and 4th wall shenanigans

  • Can absorb other SOULS or the traingle fruit for a buff

  • The game's soundtrack


Disadvantages:


Blixer


“The towns, DESTROYED. the cities, DESTROYED. The farms, DESTROYED. The villages, DESTROYED. The government, DESTROYED. Society, DESTROYED. YOU HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.”


Advantages:

  • Far stronger and tougher, at least physically

  • Very slightly faster and more agile

  • Can corrupt Flowey and the SOULS for a time

  • Could theoretically attack Flowey from the game over screen

  • Outnumbers Flowey thanks to his minions

  • The game's soundtrack


Disadvantages:

  • Next-to-no counters to DETERMINATION and RESETTING

  • Far less versatile and experienced

  • Lesser showings of reality-warping

  • Corruption can be resisted or dampened

  • Could get OHKO'd by having his SOUL absorbed

  • Not as level-headed or cautious

  • Inferior ressurrective abilities

  • Got cucked by 2nd grade geometry

Final Tally

Team Flowey (Keith, Lanturn, Smashor, Poison, SpongeGod, purpleDemon, Lightbuster30, Jamievania, Bluegatito, Ningen Slayer) - 10


Team Blixer (Matti, Garf, Hatty) - 3

Next Time...


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